Kevin Kerner:

0:00Hey, what's up guys? This is Kevin Kerner with Tech Marketing Rewired. Ever hit that moment where your company's growing but the story still seems to be stuck in your executive team's heads or, even worse, your founder? In this latest episode, I sat down with Kristen Brooks, who's the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Octane and someone I've known for a long time, since our Cisco days, to talk about how product marketing actually scales. We got into founder-led storytelling, pricing and packaging, plg versus sales-led motions and how to message AI features without sounding like everyone else. This is a great one from a real product marketing professional and something other founders like me really need to hear. Let's get into it. This is Tech Marketing Rewired.

‍Kevin Kerner: 0:44

Welcome back to the Tech Marketing Reward podcast. Today I'm talking to Kristen Brooks, senior Director of Product Marketing at Octane. I've known Kristen for a long time and I know in her career she has worked on a bunch of really interesting product and marketing projects. She has background in pricing and packaging frameworks go to marketing strategies. She has background in pricing and packaging frameworks go to marketing strategies. She's worked with all the major research firms like Gartner, forrester and IDC and has worked on even some AI product positioning. Throughout her career. She's held positions senior product and marketing positions at Bright Spot, bizarre Voice and Cisco, and at Cisco is where we met each other. Yes, most importantly, this is the first podcast that I'm talking to a product marketing, senior product marketing professional, so I'm so excited about it, especially in light of all the craziness with products and AI, and this will be a really good conversation. So, kristen, welcome to the podcast.

Kristen Brooks: 1:39

Yes, thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. There's so much changing really quickly, so it's a really fun time to work in technology, be a product marketer. I feel like the role kind of changes every day, so excited to be here.

Kevin Kerner: 1:54

No doubt, no doubt about it. It's crazy, and that's what rewired is all about, and we're like all trying to rewire our brains right now. It's really nuts. Definitely, before we get into it, I'd love you to talk a little bit more about your responsibilities at Octane and maybe also, for those that don't know what Octane does, a little bit more about the company.

Kristen Brooks: 2:12

Awesome. Yeah, octane is really I think of them as a portfolio company of several brands and primarily geared and focused around shipping logistics helping people mail the things that they want to mail to anyone in the world, whether you're an individual, like a lawyer who's sending a lot of mail letters, or you're a very large enterprise, retailer, brand who's shipping millions of packages every day. So we help those companies grow and scale and provide shipping and logistics, no matter how they want to use them. So product marketing at Octane we primarily focus on go-to-market and I think it's like two flavors that are really interesting. One is very product-led growth SMB bringing SMB to mid-market, mid-market up to enterprise, like how do we scale that and where does website lead go to market. And then there's also an enterprise component which looks very different, which is very much a sales-led growth motion.

Kristen Brooks: 3:19

So I think it's been a really fascinating place to come in and just kind of see the differences. Really fascinating place to come in and just kind of see the differences. My background's in pure enterprise all the way from the beginning, so it's been pretty fascinating to see even the changes in the product marketing discipline around messaging, how it's deployed, the channels that are different between SMB or individuals versus enterprise. The differences between I'm a person I'm checking out with my credit card online versus, oh, I'm a part of a giant buying committee that requires executive level, you know approval, so I've loved it for that reason. I'm learning a ton and yeah, so far so good, but there's a lot going on.

Kevin Kerner: 3:58

Yeah, that diversity of like the two differences and how you go to market is really super interesting. About Octane when I found out you'd moved to Octane, it's interesting you get alerts from the post office when they send you something or something and it has a lot of. I guess retailers have Octane on the it's coming from Octane, so you guys are kind of a hidden backbone, I guess, of supply chain.

Kristen Brooks: 4:23

Absolutely, absolutely, they say. When you join Octane, you become a shipping label nerd and I find that's definitely, in that case, like oh, where's this coming from? But it's also really interesting because you can also see where brands or products you love might be using someone else.

Kevin Kerner: 4:39

So that's also very interesting. Yeah, just what you wanted to be was a shipping label, nerd yeah exactly very interesting.

Kevin Kerner: 4:45

Yeah, just what you wanted to be was a shipping label nerd. Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm the one thing. I wanted to jump in first cause I know you've done a lot of and this may be near and dear to my heart Cause I am a founder and a CEO. I know you've worked on some founder led storytelling and trying to take a founder. This is probably like real personal for me, because I am a founder and we're trying to scale the go-to-market motion. I wonder what you've seen from founders, why it's such a hard transition for companies to make from going from a founder that has a vision to something that's more scalable and repeatable.

Kristen Brooks: 5:19

Yeah, I also love this question because I think it's yeah, it is very personal. There's a very real emotional aspect that you are working with as someone who's trying to scale something, and I think, until you see it firsthand, it's aha moments for me when I was in this situation, working with a co-founder trying to scale. The message is the founder story is not one that everyone has the right to tell and it's reserved for the founder. And so I think, breaking that mental model that, hey, all my salespeople need to tell the story that I tell, it's required, in order to remain authentic, to level up the story into a way that's really about the value of whether it's a service, whether it's a product, to the ultimate end customer, because you and the emotions and the person who created it from scratch, that's not something that anyone else can tell in a genuine way.

Kristen Brooks: 6:30

So I think that that's the first thing that kind of has to disconnect in order for you to really hone in on all right agnostic of me and why I found it and all the backstory which is so powerful and potent. It's like how do you take that and place it in the right spot? So I think of things like executive sponsorship, right, and like deploying that founder story in the right place along the customer journey, but being very thoughtful about it, but really empowering the sales folks to tell a more product service value oriented story that's independent of the founder, which I think is a challenge. I think the other thing that was really fascinating for me was when I was learning about the product and the service. Everything I knew or was being told was by way of a customer story and that was coming from the founder right, because he's not only built it but he's prospected, he's built the relationships, he's got the Rolodex right, like he has those personal connections. He's telling his founder-led story and it was by way of here's what the customer wanted and here's what we delivered. And so it was really challenging for us to like find the common thread, like what were the things that were truly valuable across all of these examples, and that becomes the value of the solution or the service itself, like was it, hey, we can scale faster, better than anyone else, or we're the most flexible solution, or we empower collaboration. It took us a while to unwind that from a this is a customer, adidas and they were looking for X, and this is what we did with them and this is how it went. The whole story, so that was. Another key moment for us is recognizing that all of these really important, valuable attributes were kind of hidden within, you know, 10 to 50 customer stories that we had to kind of back into Um and then I think, the um.

Kristen Brooks: 8:40

I think like one other component here was the sales process itself and what I've found. Again, when you're in that stage of founder-led and you've probably got your like pod of people who maybe been with you since the beginning, everyone's kind of got their own little flavor, kind of trying to standardize. What are the key milestones within a sales process? Right, that probably looks pretty different across each of the people that you're currently using to sell what and I learned this from Gartner. Actually, they did a big study around scaling sales and what people and so they fail over and over and over again.

Kristen Brooks: 9:41

Right, because they're relationship people. Right, like, yeah, they know how to work with a relationship, but what does sales look like at that particular company? What are those key milestones? So that was another aspect that just became pivotal to marketing. To sales, especially in an enterprise motion, it's like what are those key things? It doesn't have to be perfect, but what we know is consistent across everybody's sales motion, and trying to standardize that so that the salesperson doesn't have to come up with it on their own.

Kevin Kerner: 10:12

Lee, this is hitting me so hard.

Kristen Brooks: 10:13

As a founder.

Kevin Kerner: 10:15

You're just like digging into my soul and taking out all the stuff that I feel it's so true, especially the sales comment. It's like why can't we just hire someone that just can go, you know, tell my story out to the world? I think the other thing I'm thinking is it's so important now because there's so many companies get created so fast and they created, you know, you can have a company with, you know, 20 employees. Now that becomes huge and so that founder who started that, or a couple founders, scaling is just it could start to happen very quickly. And like what it takes to build a company now it's still real hard, depending on the category, but let's say a tech company, it just everything is accelerated so fast.

Kevin Kerner: 10:55

So I think there'll be a lot more founders of companies that don't stay small long. They just get a lot. This discussion companies that don't stay small long, they just get a lot this discussion is important because they get so big. What I was thinking through, that what you just went through there's got to be some point in time when you're like, ok, this founder needs to now begin to scale things. What is the typical signal that says, ok, we got to get, we got to get out of the founder growth thing and we got to just go into a more repeatable system.

Kristen Brooks: 11:25

Yeah, you know, I think it's. It's probably multi-threaded right, like either a we're not growing Right, and you can probably diagnose that too. We just if, if founder is doing all the prospecting R, rolodexing, like trying to run the whole end to end, which I think you see often right, and then you're only one person or a handful of people, if it's co-founders, right, so there's a limit to growth. That might suggest like all right, we've got to pivot. And I think that that's maybe probably the first thing that you might see.

Kristen Brooks: 12:01

I think the other, maybe potential indicator is, which would be a great thing, is increased demand, where you can't actually service them or convert them because you're lost in again seller trying to tell founder story which they have no right to tell, which they cannot nail, which they cannot deliver with conviction like a co-founder actually could. So when you start to see this, like maybe you were winning great closing deals and in the beginning, and now you're seeing like conversion tank, like to me, it goes back to those like first stages. So so maybe you know you're still working your Rolodex and maybe you've stood up marketing to try and draw people in the funnel, but then something's not working. We go from winning to not winning and I think that's a clear sign of whatever message we're trying to deliver. That's likely the founder message Lacking conviction, lacking clarity on what are the true differentiation, what is the true value, because we're stuck in the oh, I built this because of X, y, z, which is compelling, but you've got that disconnect.

Kevin Kerner: 13:05

Do you think that I'm curious of your opinion, like do you think that most founders the reflex when they get to that point is to hire a salesperson, or do you think they need to hire a product person, like product marketing person? What advice would you give them? What do you see and like? What advice would you give them? What do you see and like? What advice would you give a founder? Do you need to go with a product person or do you go with sales? Or do you like what's? What's the step there?

Kristen Brooks: 13:27

yeah, from what I see, it's probably a combination of sales and like a demand person or growth person. Um, so the reason I say that is because I and this is just what I see like I typically see a product marketer come in later, because generating that scaled demand, getting people through the door, getting awareness, getting that piece out there is pivotal and you can again, if you can, as a founder, maybe break some of that cycle of founder story and really hone in on these are the things we do really well, right, and that becomes the messaging. And I think also at the same time, like, hopefully, marketers are good at baseline copy, baseline messaging. They know how to test, they know how to optimize for conversion. So I think there is more of a data-led optimization where you could hire a product marketer later to determine all right, we've cracked the nut on maybe this segment of the market, we want to expand that.

Kristen Brooks: 14:37

Or even if it's on the messaging front, right, like outsourcing it to an agency of like okay, we know we're, and I think it depends maybe on the demand person and their skill set and like how things are performing. But that's typically what I see. And then I think the salesperson yeah, for scalability reasons. If you're going to draw in a lot of attention leads, someone's got to service those right. So those two together.

Kevin Kerner: 15:04

Great advice. Great advice Because sometimes, as a founder, you really don't know what is the next step. You probably feel the reflex to go with sales. I got to hire a salesperson, but the growth role is really important and something we're thinking about right now is like you got to put some sort of repeatable growth system in place before you get to the point where messaging and frankly, I think as a founder you probably have some decent messaging ability to give to a growth person to pull out of you but then it gets to the point where, ok, now we got to. Now we have to implement some real product marketing system. So now you're in this, you're in this mode where, okay, a product marketer needs to be brought in. What's the first? I'm really curious, because you've done this so much what's the first system you typically implement, or the first few systems you typically implement as a product marketer, when you're entering this type of environment?

Kristen Brooks: 15:55

Yeah, I don't know if I'd call this a system or not, but I think of it like a framework. I do the kind of state of product marketing where I've got my set list of things that I know need to be true and I take inventory of, like how well are they, based on what in my mind would be best in class for that particular business, and I just do a full audit. So we're talking about how good is the messaging, how good is the messaging? How good is the pitch? How good is the sales enablement? Listen to calls right. Sit with sales, like how well are they driving message what is even like the sales acumen around, like who we need to go and serve the pricing right? Does everyone know the pricing? I think you'd be surprised, right? And then, like Everyone know the pricing, I think you'd be surprised.

Kristen Brooks: 16:40

Yeah, no, I don't know Right, and then like are there and I think especially in Founder, like what's tribal knowledge and what's actually documented, where someone can come in and pick it up and like take it and run with it, and that becomes a super easy thing for a new person to look at with fresh eyes. Right Of like, am I having to have 50 conversations with Kevin to understand this business? That's going to tell me. Probably most things are tribal knowledge. But I think getting to that baseline of like what's your starting point and then, depending on the business and what they need and where they are in terms of their life cycle and what they need, that should determine focus. Sometimes there's really low hanging fruit, like at one of the prior companies I worked with. There was inconsistency in pricing and we found out during an RKO where we were doing a little fun Jeopardy game and we had two different answers for pricing, and that was to me like okay, like that's just, that's baseline, like let's go get that fixed.

Kristen Brooks: 17:44

it was a relatively easy fix for us to go do, so I think it's like looking at it holistically aligned with you know, what does the business ultimately need to go do and prioritizing that way yeah yeah yeah, so yeah, that's.

Kevin Kerner: 17:58

I think that's really good. Uh, people tend to over engineer it too. Like you can come in and say here's all the systems we need to put in place without doing that audit up front. You know you still have to build some structure, but also be agile in the way you do this stuff, because every company you might enter is completely different. Where do you look for the early wins in the work that you do on the product side?

Kristen Brooks: 18:25

Yeah, I think it depends on, again, the things that you want to execute against. So, like in the pricing and packaging example, like to me it was scaling and documenting a price book and almost going back to the sales team and validating that everyone could say what they knew the price of the packages were right, Like that was a win to me. If we're talking messaging right, I would start to listen to gone calls. I would start to see like adoption and then what I love to. I think a really important component to product marketing in general and I don't know if this is widely used, I don't think it is but really looking at funnel performance to tell you what to do as a product marketer. So, even if there are things like a key component to whether you're just beginning as a product marketer and coming into a new company or even throughout the lifetime that you're serving as a product marketer, To me 60 to 70% of the work that we do should be focused and informed by funnel performance. So I know I'm shifting a little away from quick wins, but I think this is really important and where I see product marketing either having a clear impact or maybe not being able to measure that. So, for example, if we would look at marketing qualified lead sales, accepted lead sales, qualified lead sales, qualified opportunity and then opportunity funnel throughout, If you can rationalize what's happening across each of those stages and define each of those stages again, it can be a scrappy sales process where it's like this is just generally what we know.

Kristen Brooks: 20:10

Then you can start to diagnose what activity, based on the conversion between each stage, is not working and then it just becomes such a clear picture of like all right, I see marketing qualified to sales accepted is really low.

Kristen Brooks: 20:28

Let's say it's 10%. Then I know I can hone in on we're not identifying the right ICP. What we're delivering is not the people who sales thinks is worth working. So that becomes a very focused conversation where you don't even have to talk about the pitch deck, the messaging like, really any of that that the salesperson is doing, because you know your problems right up here. So either we don't know who we're talking to the highest level messaging isn't resonating, or it's resonating to the wrong person. What between sit like where's the difference between what marketing things is qualified and sales thinks is qualified right, Like there's some very focused conversation you could have there. So again, I think that this is just such a smarter way to work when you look at full funnel and you can break down those conversion rates and have some understanding of what's happening, and then it just takes the guessing guesswork out of like, where do you focus?

Kevin Kerner: 21:24

Yeah, it's awesome. It also connects it to revenue or the funnel. And so that's the best place to go, especially if you're trying to make it work but you're also trying to get the ELT or executive team, to really understand the effect of product marketing. It's like connecting it directly to the funnel. It's a good thing.

Kristen Brooks: 21:40

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Kevin Kerner: 21:41

I want to shift gears a little bit.

Kristen Brooks: 22:20

Yeah, exactly, just talk a bit about that, like what's the signatory? If you want to think of that in enterprise words, right, like they're coming to a site, they're transacting, right. So the idea of the web experience becomes much more significant because that's where they are going through their entire customer journey, really Like consideration, evaluation. All of those things are happening in the dot-com experience mostly and I think that's been just such a significant change. There's a lot more quick A-B testing, conversion rate optimization, activities like replacing words, calls to action, very quick motions. That is like trying to fine tune the dial of transacting on the site. So I think that's just fascinating. There's also from a channel mix strategy, more TV, more promotions, discounts, couponing, like that type of motion Also where, like pricing changes can really move up or down. There's also a big like community aspect, right, where these individuals are talking on Reddit and they're talking in these forums and like just the social media, it becomes a much more community-based, I think, conversation than what you see in enterprise. So that's just been fascinating from an even channel and marketer despite product marketer, where I've seen some differences in the experience, and I think there's also a component there where you've really got to think about web as a proxy for upsell, cross-sell right, and it becomes about more of the automation, pendo, notifications, onboarding like translating person and hand-holding to a digital experience which is wild to see. Where, on the enterprise side, right Like I think, yes, you have important web moments, people need to generally feel like you have something for me, you service people like me, you have case studies that help me decide that I'm going to shortlist you, right, like where the analyst relations become very important of, oh, they have a reputation, they feel like enterprise, they feel big enough for me. So I think you've got a little more emotions happening, less quick decision making, more like yes, I'm going to trade my time to go explore this further.

Kristen Brooks: 24:56

So I think messaging is important and significant and there is a very real, especially B2B there's so much saturation in messaging, right, and so I think you do have to be super clear on what do you do for who and make sure you're really tied into that component and the buying committee and making sure you have a place for people to feel welcome and that you have something for them.

Kristen Brooks: 25:24

And the channel mix is different, right, you're working with a group of people. There's the dynamics of how that group interacts and plays with each other and what they really care about and I think that's what I find like enterprise sales sometimes struggling with is you want to scale the. This is the story for everybody. But when you've got like a CTO, a CIO, a CMO procurement in the room like, you really have to take that as highest level messaging. But then how do you speak to each of those individuals within a room, right, when they're all present and make it relevant? So I'd say like messaging more becomes like the back half, right and where the sales enablement and empowering a person to tell that story versus the web, wow, what a difference.

Kevin Kerner: 26:13

Yeah, it's incredible and I think there's more. I don't know if you feel this, but I think there's more. Maybe it's because all these small AI based companies are launching very quickly and getting big. I think there's more trend towards PLG than there ever has been right now. There's a ton of it, and there's some companies that do it really well, even founder-led sort of PLG motions where the founder is the voice and the web is the experience and it just makes you want to buy because you know the founder and you see him and it's a

Kevin Kerner: 26:41

really interesting time that I haven't seen before. It builds trust when you can talk about the founders out there talking about the product. Super interesting, and that's probably just driven by all the AI companies. So one last thing, because I know you've done this at scale the AI messaging thing. So everyone's trying to jam AI into their messaging. Right now, Everything's AI, which is, you know, it's true, Like everything is AI. But how do you approach? What are your thoughts on effectively messaging an AI feature or product in a time when it's just you know?

Kristen Brooks: 27:15

Yeah, there's a couple of, I think, personal philosophies or boundaries or ways of thinking that I've adopted, the first being it can't be AI for AI's sake. Like I learned about a term called AI washing you probably know it where it's like. People say that they can do it and it's by AI, but then these companies get sued and immediately I had to like that's not gonna be me. I can't be that.

Kevin Kerner: 27:41

A bunch of people on keyboards in the background doing the work, yeah yeah.

Kristen Brooks: 27:53

So I love to think of it as, like what is powered by AI versus leading with AI. And then what's the ultimate benefit? It's typically what I've seen is like a productivity story, a cost-saving story, an efficiency story and efficiency story, and so that's what I've led with is like but why AI? Trying to extrapolate that and really hit on some of these macros that we see, like tightening of wallets, tariffs is a big one in our world. Right With shipping of? Like we will help you, we will use, you know. This is an example.

Kristen Brooks: 28:22

I'm not saying that this is true, but AI powered, you know, customs navigation or something like that. Right, where it's like, here's a very real, practical thing that we know is going to be, is going to be a headache for you, is a headache for you that we can scale through AI, and I think for me, the other component of an AI story is the protection and privacy. I feel like you've got to talk about both. Here's all the great things that we're going to do for you saving money. Talking to the balance sheet, total cost of ownership Maybe it's not a direct one-to-one this feature is going to save you X, but when you look at the entirety of the solution service, how AI helps accelerate that in an XYZ way, and also here's how we're protecting you, making it safe.

Kristen Brooks: 29:12

Especially when you talk about scaled AI solution, that scares a lot of people right Of like oh my God, we're going to adopt this thing and it's going to get very out of control, even though the tactics of that and the actual implementation is probably just the unknown right, like what if and so if we can help people sleep at night by saying we've thought this through, so you don't have to, I think that's probably to me. Where the story becomes really powerful is we can get you productivity, and also we're thinking about the long-term and how you might track and measure and make sure you're safe.

Kevin Kerner: 29:53

Yeah, that's really good advice, Because I think, as salespeople, on the sales side, you just want to say AI, but you don't really think about the necessarily a good product person does this, but you don't necessarily think about the safety thing top of mind that a customer might be thinking about like, oh, is this stuff safe? So it's really sage advice, and doesn't? It just always goes back to messaging, like effectively messaging the benefits back to the customer, versus just saying, hey, we have AI, you know this cool AI that does something. It's really good advice. Um, okay, so, um, this is and I could talk to you forever. I feel like this is a little selfish for me because I'm learning so much that I can apply.

Kevin Kerner: 30:34

I'm like, oh man, I'll have to get you offline on this stuff, but uh, but, uh, um, I do this thing that I warned you about this is ai roulette. So so I put a question inside of perplexity and I'm gonna push, send, send here and then I'm going to see what it gives us. Ok, here we go. And it's basically I just put in. Your profile said give me a question that we wouldn't expect.

Kristen Brooks: 30:56

OK.

Kevin Kerner: 30:57

And try not to make it be respectful of us. Ok, here we go. Ok, this is interesting. Okay, product marketers are often expected to be the ultimate translators, bridging product sales and customer needs. What's one harsh truth about this role you wish more founders or execs understood before they launch a product. And how has how has learning that lesson shaped the way you approach your work? One harsh truth about this role you wish founders or execs understood before they launched the product.

Kristen Brooks: 31:34

I think it is just because you're excited about what you built does not mean your customer is going to be excited about what you built, but it's so great Everyone wants this.

Kristen Brooks: 31:46

How could they not want it? Exactly, exactly, and yeah, I think that there's just such an important component. One thing we didn't talk about and I just want to do a little plug for is the importance of getting as close as possible to the customer, as close as possible to the customer right, and not only from a customer input perspective, but also the conversation you need to have with the customer right as a seller. I took a two year stint as a client success leader and it's the best thing that I've done for my career as a marketer, because it made me a better marketer. I know what it is to like sit in the hot seat right With big clients where they've got objections they don't believe you, like you're really having to show up in a different way, and so I think it is like I mostly have worked with more executives, a few founders.

Kristen Brooks: 32:39

Founders are better at getting with the customer right and like establishing those relationships, but I think as you scale and as you grow like that, it just becomes disconnected. So, whether you're a product person, an executive, like sitting with the customer and like driving that diligence and doing some testing and validating and being unafraid to bring the customer along in your half-baked journey, I think is great. Customers want to feel like they have influence over your roadmap and the future of building something significant together, and I think we feel this obligation to say, like here it is, it's perfect in every way, do you love it? But people want to be a part of something, and I think that's true whether you're in founder mode or skilled. So things like client advisory boards at any level, really now that I'm saying it, become super cool.

Kevin Kerner: 33:33

Yeah, great answer. Oh my gosh, that's really good. And again, I'll say it again like perplexity does a much better job with questions than I do. I should just let AI run this thing.

Kristen Brooks: 33:44

I thought this was great. I had a lot of fun.

Kevin Kerner: 33:46

Krista, it's been great catching up with you again. It makes me I'm just so amazed Like we knew each other. We worked together, I don't know, probably 15 years ago or so.

Kevin Kerner: 33:56

It's just incredible the experience you bring and how much you've shown how much product marketing being a good and great marketer, but being a great product marketing executive it's a. It's an amazing skillset. It's really is a specific skillset that you have, so it's just delightful for me to see. Yeah, it's really awesome. I'll ask you if you, if people want to contact you to get more, just to get in touch with you, ask questions about this stuff, what's the best way for them to reach you?

Kristen Brooks: 34:28

I think LinkedIn is great. We can always start there. Kristen Brooks, I've got a rainbow-colored background in my photo Work at Octane, so I think that's perfect.

Kevin Kerner: 34:39

Oh, Kristen, it's so great catching up with you and I need to talk to you on the side about our own founder.

Kristen Brooks: 34:45

I love it, let's do it.

Kevin Kerner: 34:48

Okay, cool, so good to see you.

Kristen Brooks: 34:50

You too. Thanks so much, Kevin Bye.

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